Having lived through the collapse of the ‘90s in Moscow—watching it unravel from the inside, seeing friends and family endure the economic, social, and psychological toll of a disintegrating society—I want to feel empathy for Americans and what’s on the horizon. But honestly, I feel nothing. I’ve got my popcorn ready, and I’m just gloating.
The answer to the question posed in the title....for me is not very well. Probably deal with disgrace by reverting to something close to fascism.
Trying not to fall into the type of nihilism that you have written about before, but I'm just not optimistic. I see positive signs. But people turning out for Bernie/AOC rallies doesn't equal societal change.
Yeah, I know. I'd say resist the urge! This kind of nihilism doesn't help because it's the negation of life and human nature. We're social animals. Things matter to us. People matter. And agree about Bernie/AOC, too. To me it feels like people are still clinging to the idea that you can opposition politics and treat it as commercial mass entertainment or something, like going to a concert.
>To me it feels like people are still clinging to the idea that you can opposition politics and treat it as commercial mass entertainment or something, like going to a concert.
Same. I've been guilty of that too. Go to demonstration, leave, wash rinse repeat. I'm hoping that just how insane trump is will lead to more people going to these bernie/aoc rallies, and being inspired to actual do something.
There is actual popular anger out there, just need someone to harness it for something positive......
Not heartening. I'd hate to be accused of being a misogynist or something, but AOC is not someone who has voter appeal in flyover country or really anywhere besides the 7 or 8 biggest cities in the country. She doesn't have the street cred.
This is of course not even touching on your main point about [fundamental or meaningful] societal change, which will probably never come from the act of voting in this country, since the system is set up to perpetuate itself along an asymptote of equality that is illusory at best, and protests are either ignored by the mass media or portrayed as riots, if the aim can be conflated in any way with class war and not idpol or social justice, whatever that means anymore.
If I'm being completely honest, I'm just waiting for the Trump administration's test case for the renditioning of an actual, genuine article American citizen to El Salvador in the face of the prostrate Congress and apparently ignorable Supreme Court. A friend and I have a small bet as to what the "offense" cited will be. They're looking for the right target.
Or unaware of The Big Lebowski. These guys are something else. I'll give them credit. It's hard to keep your eye on one ball when they keep tossing so many others up into the air.
That's awesome, actually, the part about the rally in Idaho. I think I've been beaten down by the levels of stupidity and vapidness in our politics and culture the past 10 years. AOC is an interesting case. I could see her being crushed under a flood of right-wing "transgressive" meme-ing if she was to run as the lead candidate in a presidential race. Politicians don't even need real baggage anymore to be drummed out of consideration in this TikTok attention span culture.
Bernie has sold out one too many times for me. I know I'm not saying anything original here, but if he had been more like Trump in 2016 and 2020 and stuck to his guns in the primaries, he could have won the presidency pretty easily in my earnest opinion. The thing is I don't think Bernie ever wanted to be President and the left doesn't have a candidate at the ready to sweep into the WH like Obama did, even though I get that he was faux left.
At my old job we did a documentary on the obscure gray markets that emerged in the USSR and one of the people interviewed said he approached foreign students at MGU's campus and would buy second hand levis and other basic clothing items off them to later upsell them domestically (running a private enterprise was illegal in the USSR). My understanding is in the 80s and 90s Turkey was a big destination for cheap textiles as well.
As for what will happen - probably the same damn thing that happened to 90s Russia. Substance abuse and apparent suicide will skyrocket, male life expectancy will plummet and women will look for the nearest exit.
To fully complete the irony of fate, maybe you should set up a program to help get Americans out of America and into Russia's burgeoning economy, or better yet an adoption agency for orphans stateside.
Russia's burgeoning economy, in the eyes of our leaders and betters, is an aberration. It was supposed to be the other way around. But Americans shouldn't fret. The Trump administration is about on the same path as Bush and Cheney were in the spring of 2001 and soon enough we'll have a major new war or two to boost our economy.
I think you're on to something with the 2001 comparison. The flag (false or not) is going to unleash brutal stupidity into the middle east or Mexico. Another Patriot Act and more people headed to new camps in El Salvador, too.
I had a certain feeling in early to mid 2001 that I haven't had again until now. It's eerie. I feel like if they end up tanking the economy, we're in for something big and that it's all part of some greater sick plan. I really do hope I'm wrong.
Seems to me there there are hollowed out places that have years head start on this process, going back to at least the opioid crisis. That experience is at least one likely model, but things seem to be unravelling much faster than what created that model.
I'm guessing a "police action" (or worse) somewhere foreign is a high likelihood for coping with the disgrace before most of the population faces reality. Probably west Asian for Wizz Rail, but would not surprise me if it turned out to be Mexico. Somewhere around a quarter of the population is brainwashed psychos (if you don't know anyone like this, just have a taste of the comments on Racket's recent timeline for Abrego Garcia) - I mean, this is sort of typical for Americans to be brainwashed, but it feels like a particularly toxic version ready to plow forward wherever the sith lord S.Miller tells ding dong donny where to tell them to go.
After all that plays out, it would also not be surprising if the US broke up and started eating itself. It's going to take a lot to unwind American exceptionalism and tribalism.
A unique characteristic of the American collapse will be mass homelessness, an order of magnitude worse than at present. Or was this a major issue in the Soviet collapse I've missed?
Having lived through the collapse of the ‘90s in Moscow—watching it unravel from the inside, seeing friends and family endure the economic, social, and psychological toll of a disintegrating society—I want to feel empathy for Americans and what’s on the horizon. But honestly, I feel nothing. I’ve got my popcorn ready, and I’m just gloating.
The answer to the question posed in the title....for me is not very well. Probably deal with disgrace by reverting to something close to fascism.
Trying not to fall into the type of nihilism that you have written about before, but I'm just not optimistic. I see positive signs. But people turning out for Bernie/AOC rallies doesn't equal societal change.
Yeah, I know. I'd say resist the urge! This kind of nihilism doesn't help because it's the negation of life and human nature. We're social animals. Things matter to us. People matter. And agree about Bernie/AOC, too. To me it feels like people are still clinging to the idea that you can opposition politics and treat it as commercial mass entertainment or something, like going to a concert.
That’s exactly right. Actually a coworker in LA who was going to the rally there said “I’m going to the Joan Baez concert.”
lol. yeah. Was watching the Iowa one and I will say AOC is not that great as a motivational speaker. But maybe the bar is so low now...
When I saw that Joan Baez and Neil Young were going to perform my heart dropped a little. The boomers are still running things....
Yeah, well, Bernie is **cough, cough** still the man in charge.
>To me it feels like people are still clinging to the idea that you can opposition politics and treat it as commercial mass entertainment or something, like going to a concert.
Same. I've been guilty of that too. Go to demonstration, leave, wash rinse repeat. I'm hoping that just how insane trump is will lead to more people going to these bernie/aoc rallies, and being inspired to actual do something.
There is actual popular anger out there, just need someone to harness it for something positive......
Not heartening. I'd hate to be accused of being a misogynist or something, but AOC is not someone who has voter appeal in flyover country or really anywhere besides the 7 or 8 biggest cities in the country. She doesn't have the street cred.
This is of course not even touching on your main point about [fundamental or meaningful] societal change, which will probably never come from the act of voting in this country, since the system is set up to perpetuate itself along an asymptote of equality that is illusory at best, and protests are either ignored by the mass media or portrayed as riots, if the aim can be conflated in any way with class war and not idpol or social justice, whatever that means anymore.
If I'm being completely honest, I'm just waiting for the Trump administration's test case for the renditioning of an actual, genuine article American citizen to El Salvador in the face of the prostrate Congress and apparently ignorable Supreme Court. A friend and I have a small bet as to what the "offense" cited will be. They're looking for the right target.
Step one: Define Target.
"Nihilist Violent Extremists" or NVEs.
https://www.kenklippenstein.com/p/what-are-nihilist-violent-extremists
trump is really thinking he’s back in late 19th century fighting the socialist-nihilist menace?
Or unaware of The Big Lebowski. These guys are something else. I'll give them credit. It's hard to keep your eye on one ball when they keep tossing so many others up into the air.
> but AOC is not someone who has voter appeal in flyover country or really anywhere besides the 7 or 8 biggest cities in the country.
I agree mostly. Although she and bernie had a rally in Idaho that was packed. I think she's gaining some momentum, for whatever that's worth.
But yeah overall I agree with your other points.
That's awesome, actually, the part about the rally in Idaho. I think I've been beaten down by the levels of stupidity and vapidness in our politics and culture the past 10 years. AOC is an interesting case. I could see her being crushed under a flood of right-wing "transgressive" meme-ing if she was to run as the lead candidate in a presidential race. Politicians don't even need real baggage anymore to be drummed out of consideration in this TikTok attention span culture.
Bernie has sold out one too many times for me. I know I'm not saying anything original here, but if he had been more like Trump in 2016 and 2020 and stuck to his guns in the primaries, he could have won the presidency pretty easily in my earnest opinion. The thing is I don't think Bernie ever wanted to be President and the left doesn't have a candidate at the ready to sweep into the WH like Obama did, even though I get that he was faux left.
At my old job we did a documentary on the obscure gray markets that emerged in the USSR and one of the people interviewed said he approached foreign students at MGU's campus and would buy second hand levis and other basic clothing items off them to later upsell them domestically (running a private enterprise was illegal in the USSR). My understanding is in the 80s and 90s Turkey was a big destination for cheap textiles as well.
As for what will happen - probably the same damn thing that happened to 90s Russia. Substance abuse and apparent suicide will skyrocket, male life expectancy will plummet and women will look for the nearest exit.
To fully complete the irony of fate, maybe you should set up a program to help get Americans out of America and into Russia's burgeoning economy, or better yet an adoption agency for orphans stateside.
Turkey was a source of cheap textiles, I thought.
Russia's burgeoning economy, in the eyes of our leaders and betters, is an aberration. It was supposed to be the other way around. But Americans shouldn't fret. The Trump administration is about on the same path as Bush and Cheney were in the spring of 2001 and soon enough we'll have a major new war or two to boost our economy.
I think you're on to something with the 2001 comparison. The flag (false or not) is going to unleash brutal stupidity into the middle east or Mexico. Another Patriot Act and more people headed to new camps in El Salvador, too.
I had a certain feeling in early to mid 2001 that I haven't had again until now. It's eerie. I feel like if they end up tanking the economy, we're in for something big and that it's all part of some greater sick plan. I really do hope I'm wrong.
Seems to me there there are hollowed out places that have years head start on this process, going back to at least the opioid crisis. That experience is at least one likely model, but things seem to be unravelling much faster than what created that model.
I'm guessing a "police action" (or worse) somewhere foreign is a high likelihood for coping with the disgrace before most of the population faces reality. Probably west Asian for Wizz Rail, but would not surprise me if it turned out to be Mexico. Somewhere around a quarter of the population is brainwashed psychos (if you don't know anyone like this, just have a taste of the comments on Racket's recent timeline for Abrego Garcia) - I mean, this is sort of typical for Americans to be brainwashed, but it feels like a particularly toxic version ready to plow forward wherever the sith lord S.Miller tells ding dong donny where to tell them to go.
After all that plays out, it would also not be surprising if the US broke up and started eating itself. It's going to take a lot to unwind American exceptionalism and tribalism.
In Nigeria, those bags are called "Ghana Must Go"...
Damn that's harsh.
fascinating, appreciate the insight
There are also "peasant" clapbacks coming, and well deserved IMHO. JD Vance is a complete moron.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/politics/government/in-latest-salvo-against-tariffs-china-assails-peasants-in-the-u-s/ar-AA1CVWwk
A unique characteristic of the American collapse will be mass homelessness, an order of magnitude worse than at present. Or was this a major issue in the Soviet collapse I've missed?
not so much. people were given their apartments by the state.